Haven't made maps for awhile so I proabably am out of my groove. Well I'm finaly moved in so I might get back into my groove. This is my 1st map since my break so show me whats up.

whoa tk you really out did yourself on this map. Great layout and awesoem execution. A simple layout with great implementation is always great. One bad thing about the map is that the nat distance, and the main to main distance is very very long. Either reshape the mains a bit, or change*** (LOL) the main and nat entrances* around to somehow fix this.
modified by NastyMarine

Nat at the mapedge and main/nat connection moved to the top wouldn't make that choke undefendable. Pathing would be better, too (not that it is especially bad now).
Could be quite macroish imo; but then again you kept the mineral count low in the expansions...

Nat seems t>z
long distances.
The middle looks very awkward, I don't like all those ramps.
Too easy 3gas imo.
I like the main/nat/mineral only, and the E/W expos, but I don't like SW/NE, seems turtlerific.
The pathing seems to emphasize a possibly awkward and barren middle, but all the expos are on the sides, try somehow to shift the pathing to the sides with the expos.
I can't see the mineral wall ever being mined out, players will just open the 24 block and then use their workers for something usefull.

Nasty the main/nat shape here is just like in Dreamcatcher, you didn't complain about it there =/

Those 3rd bases are just very poorly placed imo, and definitely shouldn't have gas.

One possible suggestion for lessening distances is to kill the 3rd base (which should be done anyway), move the nat up and push the main wall and therefore lessen the nat space (it's pretty open as is), and place the sl either in the corner or against the horizontal map edge, which for pathing reasons is why you would move the nat up.

great improvement, i am impressed. i would not have expected such a jump in skill. however, i would drop the gas and at the 2nd expo, and move it to the 3h/9h minonlies. make them more accessible as well*, and you're map is much less turtle-style.
also, reduce the mineral count on the minonlies behind the mineralbarrier to somewhat like 4 standardblocks (or like, 5 with 750 minerals). that expo is too safe (tight entrance) to make it crucial rich, so keep it at low value to make it a little bonus, but not a decisive element.
add some jungle on the center highground hills for the eye :)


*you could do this by erasing the highground area framed by the 3 enlarged ramps and points i marked in GMCS. so this gasexpo wont be too easy to grab and defend, and it has a semi-cliff (ramp) for some dropaction

I didnt say anything in dreamcatcher, b/c the main entrance isnt as long here, and the units dont have to maneuver between walls/ramps, like they do in this map. And plus in this map, the main is alot bigger, and i wouldnt advice building my macro buildings so far away from my cc or nexus for that matter. So with that being said, i think the mains in this map should be alot smaller.

I agree with removing that 3rd base with the gas. Way too easy to grab that and the mineral only as a T vs P and vise versa. Make the players work for a 4th.

i agree with flo's gmcs' suggestions.

oh, and test the natural gases! make a testseries with 3 and 4 workers. even if there seem to be no problems, try around with some units blocking the gasminer's spawn-spot. sometimes a working gas screws the outcoming workers when their standard spawning point is blocked by a non-sliding unit. (workers are non-sliding themselves for a very short amount of time when leaving the assim/ref/extrac, so they might be forced to spawn somewhere behind the gas by the engine - just with bad luck and a unit hanging around)

I strongly disagree with flo's gmcs. The cliff helps with pathing to the expo and creates a place to harass/attack from and coordinates the map to that expo making it important imo. You could redo the main/nat thing the way nasty suggested, it's a lot simplar than my suggestion :D I however suggest you not place the minerals/gas that far from the entrance :)

I disagree with flo's mineral only suggestion, I see no basis for that; it's near the nat/main yes but the entrance is fairly wide, and seperate pathing leads to it than does the nat. If you wanted you could widen the entrance a little, but I think that's all it would need; I think it's fine as is, thanks to the nat backdoor it flows with side pathing well, so might as well keep it worth taking. Lowering its mineral count that sharply imo would make it useless as terran to ever take, and likely as protoss too, which would make it help only zerg the best, an imbalance.

it was you saying T>Z hehe, so gogo for zergonlyexpo!
hm, as you point the options highground area out, i see that you may be right.

the mineralbarrier-minonly needs to be low to keep the game away from turteling. especially in PvZ and TvP, you can grab (most important) and guard this expo quite easily with turtle investements like cannons/tanks+wall. a standard expo would make this a good deal, but a low expansion doesnt support heavy defence - so it is a bonus, but the focus as 2nd expo goes towards the center.

my main point here is that i dont want to make this expo unused - but to make the other 2nd expo (now gas) more attractive, in order to lead the gameplay towards the center.

I think you should keep a wall at flo's gmcs so i agree with both flo and joel basically. i agree that that highground should not extend as far as it is now but something should stop units from going around that ramp/highground area - a wall.

"it was you saying T>Z hehe, so gogo for zergonlyexpo!" lol flo :)

I do see your issue with the mineral only, I have a very similar issue in (2)Pale Horse 1.2, where I plan to make the map less macroish by lessening the mineral count, but I think what you suggest is way too extreme. A less extreme of that version would be valid imo.

i am the extreme guy, so what should you expect!
i actually suggested exactly what i did on DisFac with a very similar easy expansion:
-not as easy accessible as on this map, but more easily to defend as on this map (should equal)
-the access route from the main is blocked but can be removed to have fast access.
-it is a minonly close to the main, competing with another standard mineral only

so i deducted what works on DisFac would work here, too (there it's 5x750 iirc). on disfac i wanted to push to backdoorminonly (to more web usage and action supported by the concept), here i want it the other way round.

the low minonly is being taken actually, so i think your concerns are not absolute. when making this expo very low (4blocks), we can still talk about making the outside entrance some tiles smaller, to get a decent relation of easyness of defence and mineral income.

Oh yeah I forgot to tell you about me and templar testing DisFac, the latest version, and how gay I thought it was.

hm, it forces you to expand quickly which is unusual and may feel strange. but i got used to it after ~10 games and i started to like the anti-turtle-effect of it...
i didnt consider it gay :S

lol you guys got into an arguement on my map. losers :D