sorry but y NEEED to spam!!

This is my first map. I usually like to play 8 player with my friends, and I'm tired of playing Hunters all the time :) so I took a shot at making something of my own. I'm new to this, but I tried my best...

Looks good.

This is actually a good map -- incredible for a first try.

This isn't bad. I was never much of a hunters player, so I don't know exactly how the gameplay will turn out on the map.

The only "issue" I can point out, is what's called the gas issue.
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/newsscript/viewarticle.php?newsid=2
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/newsscript/viewarticle.php?newsid=10
In short, gas mines best and with 3 workers, when the geyser is placed directly above or directly to the left of the starting location for the mains. If the gas is placed elsewhere, the geysers will mine noticably slower and at different rates with only 3 workers.

Also, you could make the mineral formations prettier if you made them different kinds of minerals (not just all of mineral block type 1 in one formation, using 1 2 and 3).

Hmm, another thing I might suggest is moving the main mineral formations a little bit away from the edge of the map. Some formations appear fine, while others look a bit too close imo. I'm not sure though if this will much effect a non-1v1 game, so in the end it might not matter.

There are other minor positional differences between the players, but I think they're negligible. Overall, the map looks like it should play solidly. You might want to spend a little more time on the visuals, the map's decoration, but that also isn't a big deal.

Nightmarjoo, you're absolutely correct. Thanks for the constructive criticisms.

I won't be able to do it now, but I'll soon get to fixing the gas issue and the ugly minerals - I actually made a mental note to use the randomize minerals tool but you reminded me :)

I should probably move the minerals a bit away from the edge too. And I'll try my best to spend more time on deco with my limited experience.

Also, it's a real relief to hear that any positional imbalance isn't too significant because I struggled for quite a while to manage what I came up with.

perhaps not bad for a "first try",so far it is a "first try" - still far away from a competitive map.and this because of the far to short distances between the mains.personally i dislike alot the idea with the huge amount of resources in the main.surely,to balance a 8 player map is not an easy thing,particularly on 128*128 or smaller.it's very unlikely that u will be capable to fix the map - not with this concept.

i just looked in my folder where i keep my maps that i play for usual,and under all these maps i found only one 8 pl.map that fits in this category - (8)snake pit.sure it's not a great map too,but for alot of reasons > than this map

you should widen the ramps in my opinion. Stop any mass Ts from turtling like a bitch

That's not a bad idea.

I moved gases and mins a bit. Also, added gaps in mins for scarabs :)
And taking into account what Grief_Sticken said, yes there are too much resources in the main area. So, I reduced it from 9/7/5 to 8/6/5... I'm considering whether 7/6/5 might be more appropriate?


Widened the ramps as NastyMarine suggested.

Put a little more deco in. I'm aware the cliff areas don't look pretty because there's too much, but I wanted all mains to have comparable amounts of cliff.

And finally a note: I'm aware this is far away from a competitive map... but I'm hoping it will be fun enough to play and be a change from playing always the same maps since there's a lack of smaller 8-player ones out there.
modified by Trang

like it is now i fear it would be very hard to stop a zerg rush if you start next to the other player(because of the short distance from main to main).perhaps he cannot destroy you entirely but he will cripple you so badly that you are not furthermore a threat for him.these large ramps doesn't help the map at all - not when u have such short main to main distances

reducing the amount of resouces was a good change - i guess taking the gas from the expo inside the main and give it to the minonly would help the map eminent more.because that way you will force players to expand outside the mains - at the moment no one will do it,be assured.

I suppose we are talking 3n3/4n4 on this map, or MAYBE 2n2. But you, Grief, are commenting as if this was a 1n1 map.

The distances are fairly ok, maybe you could orange's and green's choke more to the right, and red's and white's more to the left.
You will have to move the minonlies to do that, but the rotational setup isn't required here anyways. You won't be able to take them unless someone created a mapsplit.

If you moved the gas to the minonly, you would only force a mass low tech gameplay, 2n2/3n3/4n4 already IS very mass focused. The second gas actually helps to go a different way.

you! i comment this map (and each other map too) for evry possible number of players.a zerg rush will be even so hard to stop in a 1v1 like in a 4v4;currently on this map z>all.you cannot stop 2/3/4 zerg players only when the others play also zerg;not with these large ramps & not with these short main to main distances.btw,keeping the second gas in the main will make the game boring,the more players a party has - there will be no surprises in a game.only placing the gas outside to the minonly will grant the map more variety.

The middle expansions are NOT useable unless there is a mapsplit. I.e. everyone will be playing off his main and maybe his minonly. This is by far more boring than an "early" second gas, since it will be all zeal/ling/rine.

In a 3n3 you don't die to fast pool unless maybe if you are facing a triple 7 or faster. Even on close positions. Of course you will eventually die if several zergs are allowed to mass up on you. Even on 12 @ hunts with a zerg to your left and right you should be able to hold the first attack off, though. If you can't - don't play 3n3. If you can, your allies will have a significant advantage and hopefully already be on the way to kill one of your enemies.

Hell, even in 2n2 on bloodbath zz isn't a 100% victory.

What the hell is grief talking about lol. "Zerg rush" is only unbeatable at D- skill level rofl. At C- level, a protoss going FE on a 2 player map can completely beat a 4pool, even without micro. I fail to see how, on a map with a default-sized ramp, you can't hold off a "zerg rush", especially if you expect it coming lol.

Zerg Rush!

modified by spinesheath

THATS SO OLD.

Who cares? Fits perfectly.

Yeah. But map is lost temple there. ;)

nmjoo - i'm serious with this!if you don't procure yourself new glasses i won't respond to your messages anymore.where u see on this map a normal ramp??? futile to comment the rest of your comment...

spnheat - your allusion to (2)bb is pretty far-fetched.on that map some play worker rush and since z has the weakest workers it would be hard to say z >p/t.you cannot seriously suggest on this map a worker rush too - so far you are not outta your mind!

to this map again.i said when the second gas remains in the main the game will be boring the more players a party has.in a 3v3 or 4v4 you already know where your allies are,also your enemies;in a 4v4 for sure!now everyone has what he needs in his main - no reason to risk your butt outside.i call this boring!but if the minonly outside will have gas there will be good a reason to expand outside and not to bunker inside.besides,the map need back normal ramps.it doesn't means the map will become balanced - at least it would be less boring in the game.

Honestly, learn how to play Starcraft.

I never suggested a worker rush, and just because I brough bloodbath into play it does not imply that the whole map plays like bloodbath. The only thing I was saying is: Ling rush is NOT as deadly as you think it is.

By the way, probes are weaker than drones - they have the same hit ratio, range, damage, speed, very similar AI, but they can only recharge half of their HP. "Futile to comment the rest of your comment..."

Well actually it is. Still: 3n3 on this map, one side decides to trutle and tech after taking the expansion. What you have is this: Less units because of expanding. Less units because of tech. Less units because of static defense. Less support for your allies.
Your opponents will just team up on one player and crush him with pure mass. They will even secure map control or kill one player if only one of the three is teching off the second gas.

So HOW THE HELL is that second gas going to make the games boring? Taking an early second gas in a 3v3 is a highly risky move and it has to pay off if you want to see it happen at least every now and then.

but really, learn to play starcraft & to understand a map - after so many years it is about time.to read carrefully other peoples comments can't hurt too.

on this map a zerg rush will cripple t/p irreparable when he starts next to the other player,since on sc you cannot choose your start point.1.because of the short distance main to main 2.because of the large choke.no matter if 1v1 or whatever.

i'm talking about turtling in a 4v4 and not in a 3v3! however,no matter what kinda game it is if one party choose exclusively zerg will be able to crush the other party if they don't play z too.because of the 2 things that i mention before.

and btw,"probes are weaker than drones" - they aren't! whoever hits the first,wins

Oops, didn't see that the chokes aren't default sized, sorry.

A "zerg rush" is almost never crippling above D- skill level. If you're assuming a game full of noobs, why consider balance at all? And if you're not, then saying a "zerg rush" is crippling is simply false.

Are the main chokes not wider in hunters? Since "crippling zerg rushes" are apparently not a problem in hunters, I don't see why they'd be here. Just because lings get into your base doesn't mean you lose, or are even "crippled", come on lol.

In a 2v2 with halfway competent players, no player can safely FE, let alone in a 3v3 or 4v4.
While this is true, I think that moving the gas from the inside base to the outside base might not be a bad idea.

Yet again: Hunts on close position: You don't die to lings. Bloodbath: You don't die to lings. WHY should you die here?

4 zergs is the WORST race combination you can get. Even 4 terrans own them badly. Even if you rush one player dead and pressure one other player, the rest will have a huge army and roll all over you long before you can get lurker tech.

Turtling in a 4v4 is EVEN WORSE than in a 3v3. Turtling is the worst thing you can do in SC, anyways.

lol man. probe vs drone. Sure if you attack and just keep them attacking, the one who attacked first will win. But have you ever thought about retreating your unit? Attack until the probe has HP damage, run around until you are maxed again and go for the probe = win. Sure this almost never is practical because you will have other units, but still probes are weaker.
Besides, probes/drones have a range advantage over SCVs, so saying that SCVs are stronger is not entirely true.

probes > goons, watch draco vs nony on wuthering heights in tsl.

Wow. I'm gone for a bit, and there's a lot to read.

Sounds like I should move the ramps back a bit, to increase the distance between them just a little.

Also it was suggested a while back that I make the ramps wide to prevent T from turtling.
But now, I'm unsure... should I have the ramps at default width or wider?

Imo the ramps are fine. What you need to do is try to equalize the main to main distance (walking on the ground of course).

"probes > goons, watch draco vs nony..." - thx nmjoo! do you realize how hilarious you made the entire discussion,spinesheath? i doubt you do! this is your way to argue pal? that's way you judge the strongness of a unit? now i'm terrified,speechless... sure a zergling could be > ultralisk under some circumstances;but this is the way we judge sc?!? ..damn! of course scv are the strongest workers,stop to publish inaccurate teachings here.you make it hard for me to take you serious.

and always this weak hunters analogy.weak,because you argue with a pretty imba map - as sc insider you shouldn't do that,but ok.on hunters you have longer main to main distances,with one exception red to blue.evry 1v1 red vs. blue is z>t/p,and a zerg rush will have devastating consequeces for a t/p player.because 1.of the short main to main distance 2.because of the large choke.on this map you have only red to blue proportions like on hunters.thats why the gas has to go outside(to prevent bunker inside the main) & normal ramps(to deal better with z rushes).because we don't have a hunters version with a coherent picture i upload it only for the purpose of this discussion.

I just won't comment on your rants anymore -.-

that's always better when you don't have something meaningful to say;a bit more sense of decency can't hurt as well

Are you talking to a mirror?

i think this map is very nice good job.

i dont wanna interroupt you mapmakers too much but you might be taking this too far. everyone plays the hunters and its almost imbalanced from every aspect possible. nobody thinks to play this in 1v1 or 2v2 so the balancing issues arent very important.

i believe when it comes to 3v3 maps they should be very simple. this map might be easy for terran to expand inside creating a boring game play.

i advice you for a better gameplay to make around the main alittle more cramped so protoss can make a 2gate wall inside main same with terran to make a normal block. and also make the ramps alittle wider. i dont know what you enjoy playing but im just saying my own oponion and what me and my friends enjoy playing. 3v3 doesnt need balance so creat what ppl enjoy playing. thats whats important!

Grief, I'm just wondering, but what do you play in sc? Do you iccup? Do you play 2v2 games? Do you play like 3v3s and 4v4s on hunters or bgh? Do you play fastest maps? Do you play mostly Use Map Settings scenarios? I dunno, cuz your comments rarely make any sense to me, it's like you're coming from a completely different starcraft background.

Hunters analogies are not weak, they are very pertinent. This map was made as a substitute, it ought then to play very similarly despite the major differences in structure and expo layout, the fundamentals of the game should be the same.
I do not think the distances are very different from hunters, though I could be wrong.
Also, short distances usually favor protoss over zerg, not the other way around. For example, 12v3 on Lost Temple was notoriously p>z because of having a shorter distance from main2main. Zerg always had to play cautiously and prepare for a 2gate zlot rush on those positions, it was very hard for zerg and it gave protoss a lot of flexibility.

Please explain what a "zerg rush" is too. Are you talking about a 4pool? 9pool speed? What? Because your arguments make no sense, the ability of zerg to do more damage with a "zerg rush" does not change a map's balance, it simply forces protoss and terran to play/think differently, just like how 12v3 positions made zerg play/think differently zvp. Shorter distances actually disfavour zerg most of the time, it makes terran rushes and protoss rushes so much more effective, because their basic units and workers are stronger than zerg's, not to mention they can easily make far more workers early on than zerg can given zerg's larvae-based economy. Because of this, the more time you give zerg, ie the longer distances are, the more larvae they'll have, the longer their creep can have expanded, with more time for sunks to form, etc. The same works for protoss and terran if zerg is rushing of course, but zerg rushes outside of 4/5pool, and maybe 6pool, are NOT made to kill, only to harass and weaken, not even cripple, unless you're playing vs a noob.

Spines' argument about worker vs worker is relevant when you're talking about rushes.
Also, because probes have range, with a combination of good latency and good micro a probe can kill an scv without taking a single hit, so much for the scv being the strongest worker. You can't ever make definitive generalized statements about starcraft because everything is situational.

For a 3v3 or 4v4, if a zerg "rushes" with a 5pool or something, at best he can "cripple" or kill one noob opponent, but he in the process also makes himself useless by destroying his economy, so all he's effectively done is brought the 3v3 to a 2v2 or a 4v4 to a 3v3, so I can't see that being too important in games not dominated by noobs on the map.

Short distances are a fundamental concept to this map to encourage aggressive and early/intense gameplay. All players will have this in their mind when they go to play. You won't see players going FE and getting owned by a "zerg rush", because they know with the distances zerg is likely to go for a pool-first aggressive build, a "zerg rush" if you would, and will guage their play, opening, and building layout on their ability to prepare for and defend such a "rush", given the slightly wider than usual main ramp choke. Bare in mind, the choke can be shrunk a bit too with building placement.

You keep insisting a "zerg rush" is the end of the world, but that makes no sense at all. Zerg rushes are not lethal on other maps with shorter distances or larger chokes, so why on earth would they be in this map? Zerg rushes with fairly competent players, ie not complete noobs, are not lethal anywhere in starcraft, and nothing is present in this map which isn't present on other maps which would change that fact.

well yeah,90% of the comments here,inclusive yours - make me smirk too!!.still i'm decent enough not to curse people about it when they post.i can tell you also why you have troubles to agree with me mostly.when you judge a map you always project on it a prefab strategy - and if doesn't fits in your prefab perception it's crap,or it has to be changed so that u can play it after the formula(if i do this it has to happen that).can remember how u comment once on one of my maps.something like "...the third gas is too far away....whatever".so what?so long it is for both players.oh,yeah it doesn't fit in your prefab strategy anymore!learn to be creative,to adapt,to see things from different points of view.in that case if the third gas isn't near try to think about a not so gas-intensive strategy.but no,it's easier to call it imba and complain around 'til people change their maps so that you and others can play them whitout any troubles.and what you have in the end on bwmn? toons of maps on that u can play in a very similar way! booring! you and others guide new people in this direction - you suffocate them with your prefab opinions.let them room for creativity!

curious about my background?i start to play sc 1999;long before leagues & pros.and also long before the most people here know anything about it.and i have that advantage which most people doesn't have these days.to be confronted with a game whitout any prefab startegy or style,i mean u have the chance to play & to win over many possibilities.a unique chance to find out how to exploit different types of maps.most time we played in lan-parties 1v1,but also 2v2.bigger not so often but nevertheless.also on very different types of maps;from small sized like blood bath till bgh,later the new more balanced custom maps.2002 i have enough for awhile.i used to play diablo2 & wc3.2003 i have a small comeback when fisheye was in the wcg final.mostly because my formerly sc pals try to convince me how cool the game it becomes again;they send me toons of reps which i never managed to watch them all.next to fisheye i remember players like gonia or liquidnazgul.for many reasons the verve was pretty short.finally 2005 i came back and i realized the changes in the sc community,many league,pros all that crap.BUT THE GAME IS STILL THE SAME!sure in the old days the game was more micro-oriented than it is today.but only because the new maps favour this trend(macro-intensive).i mean it's a big difference if u playin' on signal/ruby or if u playin' on python.rose of dreams was the mapper that impressed me the most how he managed to mix in his maps both elements.that's why some of his maps(nostalgia-gaia-arcadia)are legends and still played today.he could perfect the concept of balance in a map like nobody before him.

as i came back 2005 i use to play friday & saturday night in the realms with some old sc pals also with some newer people.now i realized that people play standardized strategies,other peoples use crappy tools to win .as i leave 2002 sc i have nearly a 80% of a wining rate.2005 it becomes harder.but i never came back with the intention to become a pro or something.i guess it is the fun to play this game that broughts me back to sc.on the end of 2005 i played for the first time a bwmn map - arena if i'm not wrong.later enter the dragon & memory cell.these maps make me curious and lead me finally to bwmn.nowadays i don't play much only if i really fall in love witha map.to play in a month 200 games on python or a other monstruosity like this is not what i'm looking for.still have an eye on the pro scenery and watch now and then some reps with gamers that i like,able enough to entertain me..i like strelok;the way he managed 2 ago years to take apart the gosus in tot was an event - gosh!stuff like that i wanna see in games.a other one that really warm my sc heart these days is horror-sct.this guy has no respect,he give a shit about standardized strats.he play like there is no tomorrow;instict player u know,with alot fantasy and unexpected strats.on the other hand the korean scene doesn't impress me that much.yeah,they are the best but only because they practice like hell.living only for the purpose of wining sc games - that's bullshit.few fantasy,a lot apm...not my world!

hunters analogies can be only weak because the map has serious design issues.you cannot talk about the main to main distance in hunters 'cause in hunters you have different types of distance from main to main,in the N vs NW you have a short distance like on this map the others are longer
;also some mains have larger entries than others,etc the lt analogy doesn't work as well because on lt you have normal ramps & longer main to main distances.and of course normal ramps are easier to shrink in a short spell with buildings;they make zerg rushes mostly useless.but not here!in a very early game you won't have the time & money to shink that large ramp with buildings & to invest in enough zeals or rines to stop a zerg rush."what u mean with a zerg rush?" - u r funny? of course 9pool what else? i didn'say zerg rush = gg. you can stop it as terran with some workers on the choke and some rines behind or whatever.the question is how much this will cost you. if he let you with 4 worker behind i would say you won'be able to compensate this damage.as p i'm not even sure u won't be able to stop him by the ramp;and if not he will whup your ass with his lings even more worser.

and of course u can compare units - what is this nonsense?situational is only when a map offers for some type of units better conditions.like -on the map x mutas are really strong- but his doesn't mean the same amount of corsair or valks won't beat them.it's just because on some map a muta harass is more effectiv.micro or not,if the other player has an equal skill in a worker rush t>z/p.

"Zerg rushes with fairly competent players, ie not complete noobs, are not lethal anywhere in starcraft, and nothing is present in this map which isn't present on other maps which would change that fact."really? than name a other map with large ramps & such small distances main2main,not necessary for 8 players that reason your theory!

Bloodbath.

damn,i told you once that on bloodbath you can rush with workers;because of the gosu small size.wanna rush with workers here too?

We are not talking about workerrushes, but about 9pool. Which is no rush build btw; it is a standard opening in 2v2/3v3. In 1n1 it is more of a rush build, but still pretty standard.

Besides: Why not? YOU are the one who always say things like

""...the third gas is too far away....whatever".so what?so long it is for both players.oh,yeah it doesn't fit in your prefab strategy anymore!learn to be creative,to adapt,to see things from different points of view.in that case if the third gas isn't near try to think about a not so gas-intensive strategy."

Ergo: Who cares if the map has short distances? Play a build that takes advantage of that or counters 9pool very well.

I agree, you always have to adapt to a map, every map cant be totally balanced against every aspect of the game, there are always features that favour different builds, but there is always a counter as well... open up with a bunker rax and supply near the ramp or something ?

Actually, just play the standard 3v3 opening; supply and rax close to CC in a well-defendable manner, and if you have to expect more than one 9pool, rax first, maybe even a protected bunker.

You can hardly call this map balanced.Normal ramps can help to compensate the negative effect of the short distance.

Btw,Grief I read your last comment.Long,yet enjoyable.Gives me the feeling to know you better.

Let me see.I know I have in a rep folder some HoRRoR reps.
modified by Johnny B.Goode

Grief what do you play now? Approximately what would you say your skill level is at? I'm just curious.

Spines' post is basically what I was going to say.



Johnny B.Goode, why can't you say the map is balanced? Care to explain why?

I ddidnt rerally read Grief's essay, but i like the map :O

Bumping this map for great justice, best 8 player map i've played in a long time.

I also made a Phantom map of this and added minerals and 1 geiser to the main so it's more of a replacement for BGH. Been playing this PH map alot on iccup and it's really, really fun.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C0OG6NXP

Heres the link if anyone want to throw a game together and try it, i might patch it in the future since there are tiny problems with walling in at some chokes due to unbuildable(but walkable) tiles.