something for the lovers of simple designs, like python. jbg's map made for a map contest; finally upgraded by me. i know i should upload it one month earlier,as promised; but in my defence - it is tested by now o_O

Zerg 3rd gas o_O

no kidding,hm?

u ppl should start to use your brain,instead to claim funny wishes.where u read that crap on some nmjoo comment,hmm?

if u r able to explain me why this map need a 3rd gas, i will explain u why it doesnt.and because i'm a nice guy i give u a hint;try to answer yourself the question -if luna works with it's resouces/gas amount or not?-

oh,and btw if u have doubts next time check the reps;so far the map has any...
modified by Grief_Stricken

grief tries to make a revolution in sc's gamplay :)
pretty nice huge middle with 6 ramps
and at least it's not a super macro map
good job

Actually there are 8 ramps -_-

that pretty middle has 8!! not 6 ramps;and compared to pyhon is half so big - yet still large enough for a decent middle,as you can find out if u check reps. no, it's not revolutionary - nobody claims that;but at least it doesn't ape previous designs or it's anxious to please.

the basic concept is from jbg; i didn't change that much. the most signifnicant change - the spots behind the nat; the orig. version doesnt have them.also deco/fixes etc..

okay master grief, now explain us why your nat chokes are so wide (are ZvT and PvZ allright?)

Terran sunken break, looks strong, look at my map Lobotomy, i had to place a Power generator to make the choke smaller (like python and so)

that will help protoss Feing vs Zerg

i don't understand your statement entirely. but the entrance to the nat troubles you - because is larger than usually !

it was intended so. well, it's not the first map that has this feature; the artist,rush hour,galaxy prime all work fine with that setup. btw, on rush hour u can attack each nat from 2 directions, on galaxy prime even from 3 directions; at least here you can expect an attack only from 1 direction. from what i saw in the reps it is not a masterstroke to hold the nat safe.Ok, not so easy like with a standard nat,but hey - every race has to deal with, or not?

u say p cannot fe vs zerg - why not? only when z goes 6pool but in this case when u scout u will see it and wont fe; but u wont fe on any other map if z goes 6pool,or?? apart from that vs Z if P wanna fe he always forge + cannons; i see no reason why it shouldn't work here.

no, no i mean a FEed protoss will need a lot of cannons for example vs hydralisk, they can walk arround the big choke and attack de gass or something.

if you place the cannons near the gas, then lings can run-pass, etc. zerg will have problems with marines, if you spend money on sunken colonies, then marines can run and stand behind the mineral fields (because you won't have enough zerglings)

nat rush hour is very hard ZvT, you can morph 2 colonies in each side and still lose the gass (and some times they can run into your main xD)

Protoss can FE, but then even if you keep 3 probes in your ramp, zerglings will be happy in that wide nat (if they just run and stay near the mineral fields, or somewhere else, where cannons can't reach, lings kill a coupe of probes, or even hack the warping nexus.

"..i mean a FEed protoss will need a lot of cannons for example vs hydralisk, they can walk arround the big choke and attack de gass or something."

no. when Z will have such a number of hydras able to peril the adverse nat, a decent P will have already ht or reavs near the cannons - that's why u won't need so many cannons on the nat.

the rest of your comment is speculation - a lot of things can happen on evry map; bad players/noobs which play only python or lt will have their problems to adapt on evry different map - i don't have to care about them nor to adjust my maps for their needs. i always care about race balance, on evry of my maps. the nat setup works, as good as it works on the maps i mention in my previous comment - and u can check the reps if u have doubts
modified by Grief_Stricken

you guys forget grief has no sense of actual timing and understanding of actual gameplay

u c nmjoo,with such comments u dequalify yourself and undermine constanly the chance of a peacefull dialog on bwmn.look at you - the great pretender!

your understanding about the "actual gameplay" -whatever that means for u,makes u blind for any basics of mapping;as your allegiance to testbugs weird maps. your so-called good maps are full of flaws. take a look at your so-called good motm with it's tankable mains;this are your new features?? god forbidden!

oh yeah,it is hard to adapt on a more open nat than usual,but it's a joy to play on a map with tankable mains!!

way to go!!
modified by Grief_Stricken

Natural looks hard to defend in PvZ

no grief you're retarded, there is definitely a window where zerg can harass the fuck out of protoss with hydras; there's such a window on python, which has a much smaller nat and longer nat2nat/main2main distances

Balls! Stop annoying people with your bad temper.Neither me or Grief care a shit about Python.What is all this noise at all? If you don't like the map fine,just play whatever you want.We don't mind.As Grief already said,your a champion in bad evaluations.Have you played the map,NO!Have you watched any rep,I suppose NOT! You just look the pic and start to spin a tale of.Sometimes things are not like they seems to be.

@Grief: Thank you for all the work you put in this Map,it has become much better than I thought.Even if it takes longer that i hoped ^^ And thanks also for the cool reps.I ma in your debt

ok, this map is racial balanced BECAUSE it has a quite opened nat LIKE RUSH HOUR, and doesn't have a 3rd gass LIKE LUNA NO 3RD GASS.

and you don't care if people don't adapt to your maps :)

--fixed tushed hour with rush hour
modified by Testbug

lol had some games on it, minonlies are not that close from each other.

but it is 100% impossible for protoss to FE vs zerg. at least Zvt seems to be like rush hour, but Pvz does not.

you can notice that even in the reps you uploaded, and there were also some games, where players didn't use their main races (or didn't know how to play starcraft)

"nat LIKE TUSH HOUR" - "doesn't have a 3rd gass LIKE LUNA"

what's tush hour,testbug? one of your maps o_O? and since when luna has a third gas? private version u talkin about ?

"it is 100% impossible for protoss to FE vs zerg" i like when ppl maunder this way.

against such comments i refuse to give evidence.i don't think i have to

pff grief stop kidding you know very well what testbug wanted to say rush hour T_T

"doesn't have a 3rd gass LIKE LUNA"
you forgot the end of the sentence
like luna no 3rd gas

you are acting stupidly in this post...

shh, i'm creeping a new map. Creep... creep... creep... -_-

what u expect from me to reply when someone pretends:
1. this map has nats like rh?
- when the nats aren't like in rh @_@ - where u can attack from 2 directions
- and anyway rh is a very well playable,stable map played in most leagues over many years. tryin' to point out flaws in this map is pretty bold; mostly when your own maps have major issues

2.this map has an resource amount like luna,right?. sayin' that luna doesn't work,with it's resource amount - the most played map in sc history - it's sheer madness. you expect me to argue against this??

anything else ?
modified by Grief_Stricken

Maybe grief is the best mapper in the world, he don't need BWMN

lol you said rush hour! not me""
"it's not the first map that has this feature; the artist,rush hour,galaxy prime all work fine with that setup"

i used to like you a lot, but now... sorry dude :( you suck

yeah, go and play luna more and more, the mosr played map in the world xD tham map sux, start locations not only have gass issue, they also mine t differetn speeds in each main :P
2 o'clock nat is too wide, etc, etc, etc...

maybe you are better mapper than all broodwamaps.net so we'll be happy if you just leave us in peace.

could you please go and never came back again?
(sorry for my english, i'm still learning it)

Could you please try to treat each other with more respect. I mean I do _look_ a lot younger than I am, but some of you guys _write_ as if you were 12.

I actually can't contribute anything on topic, as I admit to having no sense of timing, especially in ZvP:D

Testbug please be nicer, asking grief to leave imo crosses the line; just because you disagree doesn't mean he should leave the site. Broodwarmaps.net is the great place it is because of having a diverse variety of opinions and ideas, naturally not everyone will agree, but that's ok.

Grief it has come to my attention that I was perhaps short tempered in my posts in this thread, allow me to explain my position a little more.


My understanding is that in horizontal positions, eg red vs teal, the pathing between them is too short and too direct (too linear). You give the option for players to use the center for flanking and stuff, but I don't believe that's adequete. For example, in terran vs protoss, terran can pretty easily push (slowly attack with tanks, turrets, vultures, and mines) basically without protoss being able to stop him. Protoss can of course delay terran regardless of the pathing involved, but should terran actually push with appropriate timing (when he has a real advantage already), and should there be no major micro mistakes, I find it hard to believe that protoss can actually prevent that push from winning outright. This "flaw" comes from using this form of symmetry, which is why most (4)maps are made with rotational symmetry, which drastically improves pathing all-over if no mineral walls or neutrals are involved.

Another major "problem" in the map lies in the size and openness of the nat. Not only is the area itself larger than in most maps, and the choke is much larger than in most maps, but also the resources are farther from the ramp than normal. There are reasons for why mappers don't make nats like this, it is inherently z>p and p>t. z>p because protoss cannot protect the expansion from 6-10 zerglings (the amount of zerglings zerg will create after his pool finishes before he begins making drones, if he is not going all-in lings) with 2 cannons. The problem with this, is that it means protoss is at a horrible disadvantage compared to normally (normally is when p can defend his nat with 2 cannons if zerg only make 6-10 lings; this includes also protecting your main ramp as well as your nexus and miners; if zerg continues making lings protoss obviously needs more cannons in a normal game, but that's an extreme scenario where zerg is sacrificing his economy to end the game quickly) since he has to spend extra money without zerg needing to spend extra money. Alternatively, it is much easier for zerg to go all-in with zerglings because it is hard to protect your cannons with a gateway/forge, so zerglings can easily surround and kill your cannons. The few amount of zealots protoss would have at that time would not be able to make a difference, because they would have no real chokes to defend, thus the lings can easily surround and kill the zealots. Further more, if zerg does not bother making more than 6 lings, or bother using them, if he makes his den with his first 50 gas when taking gas at 16 (it's common to take gas sooner actually when zergs plan on going lair (and thus spire)), he will have enough hydralisks (especially if he gets range before speed) to harass protoss' natural greatly. Normally, in this scenario, zerg can potentially destroy protoss' gateway and forge without being hit by cannons (those buildings are in front to prevent lings from destroying the nat as I said above); and can easily also snipe cannons without slow zlots being able to stop them. That's how a game can normally happen on maps with smaller naturals. A larger map makes the thread of hydralisks larger, because it means protoss must build more cannons to effectively defend everything in his natural. 3 hydralisks with 0 micro will kill a single cannon. Adding micro makes it worse for the cannon. This is important because zerg can create just a dozen hydralisks and easily kill 3 cannons. Protoss must cluster cannons thus to prevent zerg from easily killing cannons (which happens if those cannons are spread out, to cover a larger area, which is required in this map because the nat is larger). The end result is that protoss is required to spend a LOT of money on making cannons to keep his nat alive. If zerg does an economically stronger build, and goes 4hatch hydralisk the same issue exists. The best early counter to hydralisk aggression is making speedlots, but protoss' zlot count will either be lower, his economy will be weaker than normal, or his tech will be later (speed be later) from having to create more cannons than normal anyway, making whatever zerg does here more effective. If zerg does nothing, he is still at an economic advantage over protoss.

The end result of that is that protoss MUST do a 1base build, obviously. The problem with that lies in the reason why 1base builds are not common at competent level sc. 2base zerg > 1base protoss by nature. Zerg has a LOT of options with 2gas while protoss has few with only 1gas. If protoss goes 2gate, and then expos under the cover of his zlot pressure (the optimum strategy in going 2gate if you cannot end the game with 2gate zlots alone (which is what happens if zerg is competent)), zerg can easily simply macro off of 4hatch within 2base, pumping drones to gain a strong economy while making sunks as needed to prevent the zlots from doing damage, and then macroing hard to produce a lot of hydralisks to the extent where protoss cannot win with zlots alone (this all happens before protoss has his templar archive or speed, unless he made those before expoing (and having templar would not help him at this point, zerg can easily outmacro a 2gate protoss with 4hatcheries, and 2 storms would not be enough to stop zerg unless zerg was incompetent (didn't dodge the storm), and dark templars could not hurt zerg who would have overlords with his hydras, and an overlord or two at his nat with multiple sunks, which would hurt his economy even more (he'd be at 1base vs 2base even longer)), and then we come back to the scenario where protoss cannot outmacro zerg and thus is required to make a multitude of cannons to protect his expo, while zerg can pressure and harass protoss while building his economy (or further teching to end the game at this point).

Bottom line, protoss because of the large nat cannot possibly beat a similar level/competent zerg if protoss is taking his nat. ie protoss must do some all-in 1base build, which is easy to block as a 2base zerg. Thus, it is nearly impossible for protoss to ever beat a zerg on this map oO


Zerg can also easily abuse terran in a similar fashion if terran goes FE. However, if terran does an aggressive 1base build, zerg could have trouble because of the size of the nat. The nat is not nearly as bad for zvt though. There are some potential difficulties here and there, but I believe it's possible for both t and z to adapt to the map for this nat, unlike protoss vs zerg.

In terran vs protoss, I don't believe terran can possibly beat a bulldog (all-in 3gate goon + shuttle with zlots before protoss expos) if he FEs. However, if he doesn't FE, protoss still has a lot of options for being hard on terran, not to mention terran's economy would be greatly reduced. However, as I said above, if no player gains a clear advantage early on, I think protoss will have a hard time vs terran due to the linear nature of horizontal pathing (the vertical distances are so long that the linearity is irrelevant).


The large nat tends to force 1base all-in builds, which leads often to poor balance (which is why FE builds are most common), but if the nat doesn't change the game at all, the fact that the 3rd base is so far away I believe will force a lot of 2base all-in builds. If both players are competent I find it hard to believe that a real long game can occur.



Now, I am pretty sure you won't believe me in everything I said above even though it is all based in the basics of sc. So, to alleviate that I'm willing to test the map with you, or your friends, whoever. Give me a time and place and I'll come and test the map. I'm not going to test it with some random person who doesn't know the map.

My assumptions all assume both players are not terrible (are competent) and that there is not too large of a skill-gap.



No, I have not watched the replays and don't plan to. AH is a low-skill team, most (OD) members are low-skilled, qed_ means the member is not skilled enough to use qed), [LoD] is a fairly low-skilled team, and tiko is not even in the top5 of that team. Using bad players as proof of balance or gameplay makes no sense.

lol joel, please download the map and play it!
horizontal positions are okay (and minonlies are enouigh far fro each other in vertical positons)

and don't watch the replays, thei play sc worst than grief. i'm not trying to effend you girf, i'm not good at playing too, but for example, you will never understand why didn't Stor build an extra photon cannon vs Kwanro at Carthage!

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11286_Kwanro_vs_Stork/vod

please watch this replay, Kwanro is a fucking noob, and look, stork didn't build an extra photon cannon because tht 150 mienrals were going to put him in an advantage.

i kno, kwanro cheesed, but it would be okay if storks had built an extra cannon, because stork is quite better than Kwanro.

if kwanro had played "normal" stork would have been in disadvantage but there is no problem, because kwano sucks!!

for example, if stork make nd anti-cheee extra photton cannon, and Jaedong plays "normal" he would be fucking behind!!!!!!

i'm the one to say if you are welcome to this site or not, i was just kidding! i said "grief is better mapper than all of us" so it's a joke, and i'm going to write a new joke now:
"Grief, if you can understand why didn't Stork build an extra cannon, you will be welcome to this site, if not, please die."

I never saw anyone like you two, Nightmarjoo & Testbug that tried so hard to prove again and again how bad somebody's work is. I mean you can say it once or twice,but when you guys insist so heinously, it is just jelousy!!! Near by, your effort is a miserable failure. The question is why someone has to mistreat someones work this way? If it would be so obviously bad,than nobody won't need to put so much effort to prove it.

Nightmajoo doesn't spare no pain, he write lately a half novel about,full of wild presumptions.And in the end he allow himself to criticise the Players in the replays,before he ever saw any replay.Yeah, that make sense.Instead of all this shit wasn't it a lot more easier to upload some reps,able to prove you position?No, sir!

And Testbug, your inferiority complex related to Grief is stunning,man.You must fear him like hell.I mean saying to things like"could you please go and never came back again?"and"please die"are clear messages.I read once that you are from South America.I dont know,maybe in your country or neighborhood,people use to joke this way.But I doubt it!Anyway in Europe these are worse,very offending insults.Your wretched try to relativise them is a evidence that you don't understand their meanings.

The replays Grief posted are pretty good in fact,especial the last 3.All this Stork-Jaedong bullshit from Testbug is out of place.You don't need Players of such magnitude to test your maps.I am someone that watch constantly reps from pro games.Yesterday I watched the german KotH games between ips.koll and HoRRoR. HoRRoR is one of the best progamers in Germany at the moment,perhaps the best terran in Europe after Strelok. His Apm values in the 3 game are 212-207-198(as proof I will upload those reps!!!).In Grief's replays Qed_Bisu has 207,SH-Thanatos 174 and Vera 251 apm. That sounds very competent to me.Everyone is invite to watch them and find out how good or bad they are.

I strongly suggest Grief to iggnore from now on any Nightmarjoo and Testbug comments,because they lead to nothing.I also don't believe Grief need your help to improve or test his maps.Grief's knowledge as competent mapper is beyond question,because evry map he made is a piece of quality.Just because you two have private reasons to deny this fact doesn't change anything.

This is hilarious. What's the point of coming to BWMN, receiving criticisms, denying those criticisms, and saying that those who criticized the map are insane( maybe they are)?

Johnny B. Goode, I understand that you feel the need to defend Grief on his position, and I do too, but only partially. We should all agree that insulting each other isn't the way to go, we only waste time and we distance ourselves from other mappers. We all need to agree that we all have some kind of experience at mapping, am I right? We know Grief isn't a newblet, Nightmarjoo a kookoo, and Testbug with perfect english, but we should find some common ground, k?

You guys wasted some time quarreling among yourselves. How about agreeing with each other, stopping the immature insults from both sides, and agreeing on something?

By the way, we are critics, we all are here at BWMN because we strive for perfection in our maps. In our situation, we are really turning into a BM community around here.

-And don't point fingers at anyone around here, because if you do, ill kill you :P
modified by JungleTerrain

oh sorry Johnny B.Goode i didn't try to offend you. i don't like how you extract small pieces of my words, my joke was "maybe grief is quite better than all of us, so please leave us alone (the noobs)"

i wasn't saying that we hate him and he is not welcome (but yes, nightmarjoo and me really hate him)

but Johnny B.Goode, i don't think i am jelous :P
maybe nightmarjoo is :P but i just tried to help, talk to grief, i used to like him a lot, i liked his maps and sent him some pms, but didn't like the fact that he never fix obvious issues on his maps and just inssults us :(

what i found here is that nightmarjoo is writing what he thinkgs, and he didn't really test the map. i also corrected him and "insulted" him too xD

but we are just having fun ;)
hey JungleTerrain, what's a kookoo????
i said i'm still learning english :( isn't that obvious? xD

okay Johnny B.Goode, when we sai the nats are too open, Grif should try to explain why is it so open, maybe the map would be P>Z if the nat were normal. because there is no 3rd gass. a FE protoss will just macro PvZ and GG...

but it's not too proffesional to say "not, rush hour is a pro map, and the nat is even more opened, so i'l opeen the nats some more in the next update"

and when we talk about rush hour he sais "ohhhh are you crazy? how can you compare rush hour with this map? they are quite diferent!"

Grief is a really funny person and we need him in the site, without hi, we would only have JungleTerrain to flame!

(flo left the site, LGI left the site, nasty left the site, radix left the site, lancet left the site, even panschk left!!!!)

we are only Nightmarjoo and Me!
it feels lonlier than radiohead's There There!!

lol, flame me

yay! that's the spirit! ;)

JungleTerrain is gay


Dude JohnnyBGoode you're welcome to disagree with me and tell me I'm wrong, odds are I am wrong to some degree, but you could actually try to prove me wrong with a real argument, instead of saying I'm wrong because I'm saying the map isn't good. Seems to me that you're saying I'm wrong just because I don't agree with you, that makes no sense at all.

If grief didn't want comments on his map, he should've have posted at the site. Since he did, I'm going to comment the map and explain what I think about the map, what I think is good, bad, what could be improved, my understanding on how the map will play and what the concept is, and how that concept could be executed better. That's what I do here.

I not only gave a long explanation as to why I thought the map's gameplay was lacking, I also offered to help test the map, which could very well prove myself wrong in the process. If you're afraid to actually address what I said, maybe it's because you know it's true?

You suck

Your mom!

stop flaming each other kids, let's peace and love

You suck a little bit less

ohhh i totally forgot p4e!!!
let's flame him too!

damn

*handing out temp-bans*

sp..the grim reaper :/

free post!!!11

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