Interesting although please have at least have all the bases there before you post, and also it should be (4) not (0)...looks kinda like FS with the main-nat-third layout...

lots of wasted space

The Northeast and Southwest mains are awkward. The space between the mains and the thirds can be used better, maybe by enlarging the thirds' area, since it seems mighty cramped.

I also recommend making the third have at about 7-8 minerals patches, since there are only 3 expos per fourth of the map, so only 12 potential mining bases, which isn't a whole lot (like in FS).

I don't think it looks like FS with the layout, and I think it would play out way differently than FS, since the third is farther away.

The third depends on map positioning I think.

I will add 7 and uncramp the thirds

Xelious is this your map?

Also, I would suggest adding overlord spots to the naturals

Jungle yes it's my map. Thanks for asking, I know it's actually quite good.

Try moving all nats and thirds counterclockwise a bit. Will equalize main shapes, increase nat to nat distance and improve how the thirds are pleced. Add walls behind the naturals as ovi spots and to help muta harassment. change nat formations so they are more equal in terms of vulnerability and turret placement.

Freakling I'd love to do all that, but the map is already really tight.

If I move the 6 o clock over it just makes it seigable from the main of 7 and 7 can't take that third if the spots are 7 and 5.

I will fix the naturals though

That's why you move all of them and adjust the mains accordingly.

I decided I don\'t want to take apart and redo that much of the map.

Natural distance is the same as fighting spirit. So are the thirds. The only difference is that the third is a bit harder to defend than on fighting spirit.

The naturals could be redone but I don\'t want to screw with it. The distances and everything are already done a certain way and it would take too long.

You can if you want freakling
modified by XeLious

CrystalDrag I just don't think it needs what Freakling recommended.

Why do the mains have to be equal shapes?

Nat distance and third placement are fine in my opinion so that's what matters.

It looks like fighting spirit, base distances are really similar too :P

Your opinion or the players opinion?

Tell me why players wouldn\\\'t enjoy my map first CrystalDrag. :P

I\\\'m satisfied and would love to play my map.

The only thing I\\\'m annoyed with is when players are 7 and 5 the thirds can be imbalanced.

But if I do what Freakling said it wont change that.

Also CrystalDrag I don\'t fully understand what you guys mean anyway maybe show me an example of what you\'re talking about and why?

I think I might do the opposite and rotate the thirds clockwise so that the owner of the thirds switches
modified by XeLious

What freakling and crystal are saying is that sometimes you have to delete large portions of your map and remake them, like I agree with freak that rotating it would make it more balanced, some people think editing a map is just deleting a couple pixels of this and adding a couple of tiles of that, but in fact sometimes you have to revamp a lot of it, I was checking BWMN quite often when crystal created (4) Teru and I saw most of the progress from start to current and he had to like delete the natural and third completely sometimes and redraw them just so he could rotate the bases... You don't have to shift the bases a lot, I'm pretty sure it's possible to do without making stuff siegable... I feel like quite a bit of the tar pit and cliff/lowground unwalkable highground thingy(I actually dunno what it's called) can be gotten rid of...also main bases don\'t have to be equal shaped but it helps balance ALOT because of easier and more efficient building placement, drop protection etc....this obviously is quite time consuming but all good maps require a lot of time and you're not obliged to make yur map as best as possible but the point of this community is to give feedback on what will make a map better, even if it takes a lot of time to fix...all the maps in the BWMN Mappack(currently used for the BWMN Open Tournament with $150 prize pool, just trying to showcase this communities best-ish maps and our talents) all took a looonnngg time to create their current version and many many remakes...
Sorry for writing in a block of text I'm not as good as the others at dividing up my thoughts and making it nice and neat I just write what comes to mind
Also can someone get ride of that annoying bug that adds a / wherever there's a ' when you edit a comment?
modified by traceurling

First I have to reshape 7 so it\'s not too close to the third etc..

#1) I\'m not skilled enough to do what he\'s asking anyway

#2) I don\'t know exactly what he wants me to do.

#3) I just had a much easier idea where I make the thirds more like fighting spirit and instead of being so easily accessed they have a ramp going down on both sides.

#4) I spent all day on it and I'll probably feel like fucking with it tomorrow, but IDK. I also hate screwing up a good piece of art work :D
modified by XeLious

Can yu also fix the name? Small stuff like that annoys me sorry...
Lol the third ownership right now reminds me of Sniper Ridge's third ownership kindaish dunno why exactly...

traceurling it wont let me fix it for some reason. I had to use 0 or it wouldn't upload the map.

ALSO

I still have no idea what he actually wants.

Also please don't use pronouns like "he" I always et confused who people are referring to, but I assume you're referring to when freakling said rotate it counter clockwise?

I'll try to explain what (I think) he's suggesting,
So starting at the 9 o' clock, the third looks kinda weird so you're gonna want to expand it and move it downwards a bit into the tar pit area, then since its moving towards the natural you'll want to move the natural downwards too do it doesn't get too close tothe third...this will cut into the main, so to make up for that you expand the main slightly to the right, this then eliminates some of the craggy stuff(I'm gonna call it that cuz that's what it looks like to me) and then the main will become somewhat the same shape and size as the 4 and 10 mains(these mains are a good standard size and shape) then you move the 5 third slightly right into the tar pit(not too mch tho) basically freakling (I think) suggests you expand and move the thirds, and move the naturals and resize the mains in the counter clockwise direction...in general you want as little of the tar pit/craggy stuff as possible just do what's necessary to separate the bases...also another thing someone mentioned above, you're gonna want a small wall between the natural and tar pit.....
Yah I'm not that good at explaining maybe freakling or someone can add in some GMCS stuff or draw a picture to better visualize it...

\\\"He\\\" is confusin... Especially no one knows anyones true gender as this is the internet ㅋㅋㅋ
Muchos gracias, traceurling. Tú eres a mucho trabajo.

An example is here... You can see twenty previous versions
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389563

It will niot allow (4) because there is already a map called (4)shuriken


modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag

@XeLious:

First of: You cannot change the map name to (4)[...], because there already is a map titled "(4)Shuriken" in the database. Just rename it "Aureate Shuriken" or something...

Secondly: You seem to greatly overestimate how much a tank range is. It's 12, which means 12 tiles.

As a practical tip: You can get away with very little effort, even for bigger edits, if you use the pick/copy layer efficiently.
For example: Your nat is already done, with right shapes. mineral formations, decoration, doodads etc... Now all you want is relocate it:
Just shift-select the whole thing in the pick/copy layer, then recreate just the rough terrain shapes at the new location, remove all old doodads, sprites and units (resources), then go to the pick/copy-layer again and paste the whole nat back in at the new spot.

Damit I can't believe I spent the whole time thinking tank range was 24 tiles

Okay guys.

Here's the deal. I'm not exactly sure what you guys want. I know what you want but I can't just improvise the rest.

Basically what you need to do is show me a diagram or something. Go draw what you want me to do freakling and I'll do it.

Tank range's function can be

X=12cos(x)
Y=12sin(x)

Or

R=12

So the diagonal max range is about 8.25,8.25 from the tank as the origin

->GMCS

Look at the GMCS, just move everything in the direction of the arrows freakling added

Where is the GMCS

the gas placements for the thirds are just bad, they are in awkward positions.

Also, mutalisk harass is too difficult for the naturals as it is. The natural minerals are too safe, imo. Also, maybe add +1 mineral patch to naturals and thirds.

Maybe you could get rid of the tar around the middle and actually add another ramp or more of an overlord spot.

If you are already doing the decoration, then fix tank holes, too.
modified by JungleTerrain

Look two or three lines below the map pic, it should say Comments: GMCS(8 elements)
Also yah you shud change the gas placements for the thirds they feel weird being right there...

Jungle Terrain you are just wrong
modified by XeLious

I agree with all of jungleterrains assessments

Say there is a drop in the thirds mineral lines, then the worker pathing that goes to the gas will disrupt the army

Mutalisk cannot harras much on this map except for the thirds. THe naturals minerals should face the cliff so mutalisks can at least force some turrets.... I assume you do not play zerg

Low amount of minerals is imbalanced because protoss needs the minerals the most.

An extra ramp might be needed so that a tank contain will be as devestating.

And fixing tank holes are important... They are highly prominent in the tar to cliff transforming.

Also thosr mineral onlines are so vulnerable, because t is so close to the big main ramps.


modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag

CrystalDrag that\'s not a big deal. The army would probably just kill the workers.

What I agree with is mutalisk harrass so I changed the naturals a bit in the actual map.

Overlord spot I don\'t care about.

The rest ill do tomorrow
modified by XeLious

You might not care about overlord spots, but Zerg players will be greatly at a disadvantage without them
Muta harass won't touch on that until I see your updated map since you said youll fix it
The workers may die, but what he's talking about is using the gas to "drone drill", which is vital to save the expansion so it actually does matter.

You can or you can\'t drone drill?

I officially hand this map over to one of you

password is FUSIONGTX
modified by XeLious

You need to fix the gas placement so that you CAN drone drill is what he's saying...

If you have good reaction time then you can retreat.
And you are fairly ignorant about zerg scouting.

Crystal or someone else, I'm handing this map over to you.

password is FUSIONGTX

I dont need no password...

Ummm the thing is we're offering advice so that you can improve it...we ourselves don't really find interest in doing other peoples maps for them (unless it's a really catchy concept) the point of this community is to get feedback on your maps so both you and your maps can become better, if you want these maps to become competition level you'll have to put a lot of hours into it, otherwise it'll just be a new map to play with your friends...

Well I\\\'ll be handing this map over to whoever wants to make the edits and they can call it their map. The end.

I didn't want advice I said I don't want to edit the map 10 times during this thread. You guys do this just to troll me stop playing lol
modified by XeLious

If you flat out refuse to discuss your maps' flaws you probably shouldn't be posting those maps in the first place, seeing as how posting them makes them OPEN TO DISCUSSION...

Now, you realize that we're trying to help you?

Harsh criticism is what you sometimes need around here. I'm sorry if calling your expansion layout awkward seems to offend you or whatever, but you need other people to point stuff out to you because there are things that you yourself simply never consider. It's just the way that it is.

Being a mapper is being able to take criticism.
And actually, I think the map will play fine as it is right now. But here we are, trying to help you make the map even better. We don't try to settle for just "fine", though.

For me, for example, I don't really regard other peoples' criticism as "wrong", since there is usually at least some truth to their comments. You have to learn to look at your maps with other peoples' perspectives. My only problem is being very lazy...

But you can leave the map as it is, if you want. It's your choice. You can settle for "just fine".

Or you can choose greatness :)

just make your maps final and then no one will have to give you what you seem to take as annoying comments

Coming back here was a mistake. At least I know you are all assholes beforehand.
modified by XeLious

Promotion thread on Teamliquid.net

My thread on here.

Why don\'t you jerks learn which is which.

I guess you would if I weren't right about accusing you all of being assholes lol

Huge mistake trying to deal with you people again sorry.
modified by XeLious

Ummm tried to offer you advice and the reason we kept on reiterating stuff like thirds is because it was true about positional imbalances...and also on the TL thread neither freakling or I were like flaming, I merely wanted to find out the process on how to get maps into iccup and freakling was give telling you that mods wouldn\'t support your flaming...the other people are TL people who either a. Were offering you feedback on how you can improve your thread or b. telling you that your flaming seems immature...And also being passive-aggressive doesn\'t make you the better person it just makes yu look like an immature adolescent. Also we did not get you banned, an admin saw your posts, decided you didn\'t contribute to the community, and banned you. It was your post, not us.
Edit: I honestly don't know why you're mad because we're not mad at all. Don't see any reason to be mad.
modified by traceurling

Dude you guys were clearly wrecking a promotional thread.

OF course you don\'t see any reason to be angry, you\'re lying to me traceurling.

Why would you even go to my TL thread and do something you can do here unless I were promoting my map which was obvious.

I mean this is ridiculous. OF course you know what you did traceurling why else did you say \"why should it be your map\"

Lie all you want traceurling but we both know what you guys did to me.

The reason you were reiterating stuff is because you were ignoring my repetitive please stop posts.

I had my opinion and you guys had yours. That should have been the end. Since it's obvious that quoting you + what you guys did was flaming I don't even want to argue bye now.
modified by XeLious

Sayanora

Ummm if you read through that thread it wasn't me who posted the "why your map" comment, and I'm active on teamliquid and here so when I saw your thread I wanted to ask how to get maps onto iccup mappack read back through the TL thread that's what I was inquiring...I honestly don't see a reason to be mad...I was just too lazy to open up this website so I asked my question over there...read your posts in a couple years with a cool head you'll see you're misinterpreting/overreacting too much

Lol I posted criticism on TL and not here because THAT'S THE SITE I NORMALLY POST ON, not because there was some grand BWMN conspiracy to screw over you and your thread. Apparently you don't visit TL often because every time new maps are posted, even finalized proleague or GSL maps, people ALWAYS discuss any potential flaws, as SHOULD BE DONE for any map intended for "serious" games. Why you're taking it personally I have no idea (and neither does anyone else lol).

Also, since when does "promotion thread" mean "pls worship me and my amazing maps thread"? If people actually tested your maps (AS YOU ASKED) and found problems, what exactly did you expect them to do?

lol he's like test the map, but actually it works perfect

direct quotes:
"This thread has a point. It's called test my map and see how it actually works."
"The map is perfect as is and actually plays exactly like fighting spirit."
"Dude you guys were clearly wrecking a promotional thread."
modified by Taranok

so if it plays exactly like fighting spirit... why not just use fighting spirit?

trolololol

this guy is hilarious, i'm actually disappointed he got banned from TL

I was like, test the map to see how you like it Taranok. Sayonara. I\'m glad you jerks knew it was a promotional thread and went in destroying it.

If you are making a promotional thread for a map you want taken seriously you would also not enjoy someone coming in and making points about flaws in your map that aren\'t even really flaws but make it so people don\'t want to give the map a try.

It\'s already a scene that\'s really hard to get noticed in and you guys knew EXACTLY what you were causing me. There\'s no denying it.

You guys were cock suckers to me, pretty basic really.

Everything you say are just fake excuses to pretend you guys didn't have the sole purpose of fucking it up in mind.

IT WAS OBVIOUSLY A PROMOTIONAL THREAD. YOU WOULD NOT HAVE LIKED WHAT YOU DID TO ME EITHER.

I SAID COMMENT, NOT PRETEND IT'S BWMN. COMMENTS LIKE THIS:

GOOD LUCK WITH THE MAP I ENJOYED PLAYING ON IT.

OR SOMETHING I WOULDN'T MIND AT ALL:

I DID NOT ENJOY PLAYING IT.

really simple and easy to understand and any fucktarded toad can see that you guys were flaming my thread to peices.

I told you I Didn't want to talk about it about 10 times literally and you guys kept saying you were helping me by not listening to me.

Which is made even more obvious by the obviousness that it was a promotional thread for my map.

To be taken seriously it can't be getting bashed. You guys knew that on purpose and on purpose you guys ignored me and did it anyway. You guys are plenty smart enough to know why that would make me mad. You guys went in and fucked up my thread because you are typical-humans.

What else would humans do besides treat the new black like crap?
modified by XeLious

Lol still don't see why yu mad

prob cause he got himself banned, lol.

I wonder why he's even around? I thought he left.

If he's reading this, maybe he'll understand: it\'s awfully hard to tell it's a promotional thread. Test maps usually refer to the fact that they need TESTING, not that they're finished and for the player to enjoy. You don't see any promotional ads for products on TV that say, "this product needs public testing".

what is he expecting from the internet anyway.

modified by Taranok

Maybe it's like those psychological tests people give you and they don't tell you those results

so if someone had said "i did not enjoy playing it", would you still have flipped out if they had explained why?

Treating "new black like crap"?
traceurling, negativezero, and taranok do not have seniority compared to me, freakling, or jungleterrain...

"To be taken seriously it can't be getting bashed."
On the contrary, anything must be bashed for it to be taken seriously... like job application or a proposal in a meeting... i think... i dont work so dunno :)

arnt you a typical human too?

Woah you're really older than freakling and jungle? I always imagined like...panschk was the grandfather and freakling was the father of bwmn...so is freakling like the uncle then? And also what yu said is true ^

No no haha im talking about how long we have been at bwmn. Im the youngest mapper here, i willing to be a large amount of money on that. I think i visit this site the most frequently, but freakling is much more experienced. :)

are you asiantraceur? o.o

modified by CrystalDrag

Yah I decided to just make my username consistent everywhere
Cuz I like parkour and I like Starcraft, so parkour(Traceur) + starcraft(ling) = traceurling
And also lol that's what I meant I didn't know you were active on BWMN earlier than freakling...
modified by traceurling

Panschk is fatherr
Freakling is unclee
:P

Who's the grandfather? And the older brother? :D

._. panschk created this site... so father still. i guess his grandfather? and if he has brothers?
All ofthe rest of us are orphans.

Haha makes sense...well he created it but now he's like that old guy who disappeared somewhere D: (panschk come baacckk) which feels grandfatherly to me xD

o.o! your related to him. kekeke.
I sure theres a picutre of him in the old news. im going to look for it. :)

spent a good 20 minutes looking for it T_T
modified by CrystalDrag

Lol maybe it got deleted when that hacker dude trolled the BWMN database?

feel free to not answer, but how old actually are you crystaldrag?

How old are you first! ^^

I didn\\\\\\\'t get myself banned. I didn\\\\\\\'t even actually do anything that deserved a ban except tell you people to stop trolling my thread with things I don\\\\\\\'t want to talk about with you as mentioned 10 times during your spamming of my promotion thread which I actually wanted to go well.

You can point out the same positional flaw in fighting spirit now can all of you jerks leave me the fck alone?

Dude why would I post on teamliquid and here if I weren\\\'t promoting the map.

OF COURSE YOU GUYS KNEW. THAT WOULD BE WHY YOU IGNORED ME LITERALLY 10 TIMES.

I COULD BE GETTING SOMETHING GOOD AND DOING SOMETHING USEFUL BUT INSTEAD I HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS SHIT. If you guys weren't so determined to wreck everything for me like I'm a 1950's black man maybe something useful could have happened.
modified by XeLious

Im 2 years younger than NegativeZero...
We really need a chatroom for this site...

And besides you guys were only jerks because I knew I had a reason to be angry.

No reason to be banned. I didn't even insult one of you..

xelious: you don't get to dictate what other people talk about on the site, regardless of whether you started the thread.

i'm sure nobody would have disregarded your map based on other people pointing out flaws. every map has flaws/imbalances, and figuring them out helps to understand the map and how it will be played - doesn't necessarily mean the map sucks. this is normal, just look at literally any map thread on TL ever.

on the other hand, clearly people now disregard YOU due to unnecessary flaming and raging. hopefully you see your problem.

also wtf, random appeals to racism, i'm sure that falls under one of the logical fallacies
modified by NegativeZero

lol since when is calling people haters and jerks not insulting people?
and they clearly indicated that his behavior was unacceptable.

Anyway I don't understand why he says leave me alone and then comes back to read all this stuff. Probably super self-conscious.

Being 18 must be fun :D

I'm sorry you feel that way, Xelious.

But then again, I do remember this comment you made on one of your maps from awhile ago regarding mapmaking in general.

"idk, i just do this shit for fun.

I don't care :/"

And I actually saw your posts on ICCup and TL, but I intentionally refrained myself from posting there and put my comments here because I knew something like this would happen.

I even edited my comments several times so that I would not offend you.

So I can really say I tried to help.

Not as fun as being 16 hehehe

I'm pondering whether or not to reveal my age...

since we're off topic anyways: I'm so happy because I got HotS beta!!

Fine guys I'm sorry.

But my map is still going to be an ICCUP map like it or not :P

Here is Thread
:) Go there and repeat everything! It for random stuff ^^

Oh right, everything is just a huge conspiracy to bring down Xelious, the superhuman, not hailing and worshiping him unconditionally is but a clear indication of our all vast inferiority to his impeccable mastermind...

How could I ever have missed that truth...

Well said freakling

. . . .sarcasm obviously doesnt transfer well onto internet forums. . . .

ok, now there's just NO WAY he isn't trolling...

^^^