PYTHON CLONEEEE.
CrystalDrag's reputation plummets.
Rated 0. woops.
Shade)R, What do you do now?... Your just going to show them this?
Posted on iCCup.
modified by CrystalDrag

Cute

You love pasting that piece of temple terrain, but its so ugly lol. Otherwise a solid version of reverse python. It is what it's supposed to be.

Shouldn't you make the name nohtyP? Or NOHTYp?

Yeah that temple thing is pretty ugly, like Chef said haha

Why not make the snake in the middle? That was the definitive visual feature of Python... You could make the Snake head pointing down and the tail up!

Also, the mains look kinda small, but Idk...

i hate the snake. and the middle slightly smaller due to some unbuildable terrain of the mains...
i may fix the spots to have better transition.

What needs to be pointed out: You cannot simply inverse a map, and expect its balance to carry over unharmed.

- Mains seem somewhat small and exposed for an "inverse" map.

- The 3rd now being downhill makes it even hader to take than on normal python, where 3rd gas is already quite the challenge for terran in some positional matchups.

- nat chokes, like in python, are really wide, much wider that in newer maps. And terran can no longer use siege tanks on the cliff to defend the nat as effectively. So 2nd gas/fe for terran is also really hard. I think you definitely cannot rax expand with wallin.

- The island expo being high ground makes it harder to drop (unrestricted sight range for anti air), and makes tankability of mains kind of awkward, considering how small they are.

* some of this could be fixed by shrinking the middle for more space, but then middle would be less open, and therefore less python-like

* I do not really understand, why you changed the mineral formations for 1 and 7 mains. Some ICCup admin wrote in the map pack release thread, that they think players are not used to horizontal mineral lines any more, so if you want this to be in ICCup, you may want to change it anyway...

So I would suggest to be more creative here, not only because simple inversions are boring.

Let's say, what you want is to create an inverse mein-nat map with a Python symmetry and an open middle.
Now Python symmetry pretty much dictates, that you need island expos between the mains, so keep them, but keep the on the low ground, surrounded by walls.

Now the mineral onlies can stay too, I guess, not much else you can put there if you want to keep the middle open, and having a ground expansion somewhere in between close-air positions is also a good thing. But you should probably make the mains bigger/less exposed, so change shape of middle, island and nat accordingly, now all you need is come up with a good use for the spaces bewteen far-air positions. Obviously you need some expos there, either one like in Python, or even two, because there is definitely a lot of room. But they should probably high ground and/or tight choked, to help terran third gas, and probably ZvT third gas, because taking another main just isn't so safe any more.
If you convert the map to space terrain, you'd still have the option to keep the middle simple and nontheless have higher ground thirds, or even Python thirds...

I dint really care about balance.... This was uninspired..
and I knew that of inversing a map.
can't do too many updates... Still working on other maps.
modified by crystaldrag

Agreed! Work on other maps! it's more worth it, I think.

You guys are really harsh, including Freakling. It is a fact of life many people would love this map if it was added into Iccup mappack. With 1 and 7 Mineral Formations being different there all balanced the same amount against Mutalisks.

Freakling you are a really good mapper but you are really too harsh here talking about balance. I don't know 1v1, but in 2v2 this will make a lot different games than Python.
ZZ vs ZP: 2 Zerg team slightly favored since hard for P to defend off 1 base uphill.
ZZ vs ZT: 2 Zerg team slightly favored since hard for T to defend off 1 base uphil.
TZ vs TZ: Aggression is a lot more important in order to contain your opponent.
TZ vs PZ: Bunker contains are strong here so Protoss must keep his probe alive incase he needs to make his buildings in his allies base.
PZ vs TZ: Offensive cannoning of the ramp is good against M&M. Also, you can cannon the enemy team's Zerg if he went mass lings and your ally went faster Mutaliks.
PZ vs PZ: Whoever attacks more is important.

You have some concerns about this map but I will see to it Iccup will add it to their next mappack. There are too many people that would love this for them not too add it.

Hahaha we seem harsh in our criticism, but that's because the point of this site is just to tell people what's wrong with their maps do we just say anything we think is imbalanced...people who don't use this site a lot might think we're being mean but it's acknowledged here that we don't have to deal with niceness when critiquing others...

Also, to get a map onto iCCup, you need popularity and testing...so you seem to have the popularity down if as many people you say like it, but you would still need a lot of games on this to show the balance of it so you need some way to get people to test this map...
Gl

I was strictly talking about 1v1 balance, not 2v2, not whether people would like this map for whatever reasons.

And ZZ team is always imba in 2v2.
Whereas inverse maps are hard on terran, if they have to stay on one base for long, like in a TvT, you should really make sure that ramps are rax-depot wallable ling tight, I think, or else you can only stop Zerg aggression, when lings are already in your base. and BBS contains or something like that are also not the answer, if there's always another enemy to back backstab you...

And mineral lines are imbalanced in many other ways now, think about building placement ZvZ for example.
modified by Freakling

You have some good comments here, but the only important one may be about being able to wall as Terran on the low ground. I will see if the other maps like this are wallable for Terran in the iccup map pack.

If the main is low ground usually the map makes it reasonable for Terran to wall at his nat, like Reverse Lost Temple and Jade and Gladiator.

But one of the 'key features' of Python has always been that its nat is crappy and hard to wall at. I don't know if you want to keep that feeling or not. Python is basically the hydra bust map ZvP

I did some map testing and found some minor problems.

1) The 12'oclock was the only position you can't wall-in from the low ground as Terran with 1 Barracks and 2 Depots. It needs some sort of doodad to the right of its ramp to close that gap. I think this is an easy fix.

2) 3'oclock natural's gas can be tanked from over the map. But this appears a very easy fix

3) 9'o clock natural's gas can be tanked from over the map. But this appears a very easy fix.

4) The 12'oclocks gas is too exposed to a tank push. I think Freakling was right when he recommended changing it back to the original old way from Python. I think this is an easy fix.

5) I think you should follow Reverse Temple how they put mineral patches of 16 resources each to make it so you can wall the naturals. If each of the 4 naturals had about 5 patches each, it would fix ALL of the fast expanding walling problems. Like RLT, Terran needs to be able to wall with 1 barracks and 1 depot because it is more difficult to defend on Reverse Python without having Tanks on cliffs.

In a positive note, it has very few problems given how challenging it is remaking with less space than the original.
modified by Shade)R

Terran Fe with wallin at nat is very risky in a 2v2, where Zerg will always go for a fast pool build.
And if you are talking 1v1 now: 3rd gas is still crappy for T.

Original Python third has always been flawed TT.

but now it's even worse

That is very opinion based LOLLL.

Why would I be talking about 2v2? Python is a 1v1 map even if some people like to play it 2v2. It was never used as a 2v2 map in proleague. It's only used as 2v2 by the community because of half the community only wants to learn one map every few years and the rest give in when they can't find each other. There are good and interesting 2v2 maps that were used in 2007, and if you want to make one for iCCup you should make it with 2v2 in mind, not try to do both.

I think 2v2 would be hard on this map for T and he would end up building a bunk at his minerals rather than try to hold at the bottom of the ramp.

I know...

Shade\'s argument against my balance concerns was, that it would be played 2v2, and my next post was going along that assumption, to point out how it\'s probably also not well balanced as a 2v2 map...

How would you guys call the act of a worker going from a main building to a mineral patch (or geyser)?
modified by Freakling

mine?

It's not mining while it's traveling...

"traveling"
I wonder how drones and SCVs hover.

Added the 16 mineral patches. Zzz.
Fixed some gas.

dont expect too many updates.


Only cool this is the flower and ring in my opinion. :) Will most likely use in another map.
modified by CrystalDrag

This map is not broken in 1vs1, and it is a great improvement on the imbalanced Reverse Lost Temple. Also, has nothing to do with 2003-2004 2v2 Korean Proleague maps.

2003 2v2 maps were Neo Jungle Story and Huntress lol. 2005 was luna. So I agree, this doesn't have anything to do with those because 2v2 didn't develop till 2006-07

I think this is an interesting map, but I just don't think it belongs in the ICCup mappool.

Me neither. Much better maps i can come up with.
More 2v2 As i state.
modified by CrystalDrag